00:27:18 Joanna Welch, HUUF: Joanna Welch, Eureka, 2020 Chevy Bolt 00:30:56 Rob England - The Climate Center: Zach's bio https://theclimatecenter.org/about/people/zach-woogen/ 00:31:08 Barry Rands: Glad to see bidirectional charging legislation at the top of that list! 00:31:19 Bob Cipolla: Bob Cipolla, Santa Rosa, 2019 Nissan Leaf, ready to use V2H since bought EV in 2019. What are the obstacles? 00:32:20 Kurt Johnson: Hopefully by end of the hour, you’ll know more, stay tuned 00:34:04 Aaron Baum: Will the slides be made available after the webinar? 00:34:08 The Climate Center (Jerilyn she | her): Please feel free to submit questions for the speakers at the Q&A tab below! 00:35:21 The Climate Center (Jerilyn she | her): Yes, slides and the recording will be made available to all who registered for the webinar. 00:40:07 Rob England - The Climate Center: Melissa's bio https://theclimatecenter.org/about/people/melissa-chan/ 00:40:40 Aaron Reaven: Zach, where are you based physically? Are you available ever for in-person workshops? Perhaps at one of those amazing Oakland site? 00:42:58 Chris Wall: Tesla Powerwall is aggregating power for the grid when the grid needs it. Also limiting Powerwall discharge in advance of weather event. Are you working with consumer battery systems. 00:44:16 The Climate Center (Jerilyn she | her): From Zach - Hi Aaron - thank you for your message. Happy to participate in in-person workshops. I am located in the Bay Area. Feel free to follow-up at zwoogen@vgicouncil.org 00:44:23 John Pfeiffer: Are existing EVs physically capable of (i.e. engineered for) bi-directional energy? 00:45:17 sue: Charging at night is 10 times more carbon intensive than charging durong the day when California has excess solar to charge cleanly. Is there any movement to get more workplace charging so people can come home and either use their clean energy or sell it to the grid? 00:46:03 Lawrence: CCS DC fast charging cars have the hardware needed. Most need a software patch to allow DC power to leave car. Volvo has furnished this patch to their cars, new and old. 00:46:38 Lawrence: For bidirectional charging, that is. 00:47:00 Bob Cipolla: Chademo also available for last 10+ years 00:47:27 Lawrence: Lobby your car manufacture to furnish the software patch so their cars can be used for V2Grid. 00:47:41 sue: Does Fermata bidirectional chargers work with CCS as well as Nissan Leafs? 00:47:51 Chris Wall: Seems that car share is heavily dependent on grants. Will this always be the case? 00:48:17 Jose Torre-Bueno: Lawrence can you post details of the software patch 00:48:25 Barry Rands: @Sue, the Electric Vehicle Association has a webinar on Workplace Charging today 1pm PDT. 00:50:44 sue: Thank you 00:51:02 Rob England - The Climate Center: Rachel's bio https://theclimatecenter.org/about/people/rachel-zook/ 00:51:09 Lawrence: Jose, the CCS DC bidirectional software patch allows current to flow out of the car to the building based inverter during a DC charge session. Most vehicles currently flag outgoing power as a fault and cause the session to end and open the contractors that separate the battery from the charging inlet on the vehicle. Does that answer your question? 00:52:04 Aaron Reaven: What is the current status of ability to RETROFIT current EV's. for bi-directional charging. For example, I own a 2017 Chevy Bolt. 00:54:02 Lawrence: Aaron, so long as your 2017 Bolt has a DC charging inlet (was an option that year), it only requires a software patch; the hardware is already there, as it is in all CCS DC charging vehicles. 00:54:37 Lawrence: Lobby Chevrolet and GM to provide your Bolt’s software patch! 00:55:24 Jose Torre-Bueno: Lawrence I would like to follow up. Please email me jose.torrebueno@cc-energy.org 00:56:07 Barry Rands: @ Sue here is the link https://www.myeva.org/events-cal 00:56:49 Michael Lipet: While integrating V2G into the peaks and valleys of the 24 hour period does charging and discharging the vehicle reduce the life of the batteries of the vehicle? 00:57:13 Aaron Reaven: Can the hosts PLEASE unlock the chat so that we can copy and download all the great info and links in the chat?? 00:58:04 david patterson: 767kWh/ 125kW = 6 hours of operation. Is my math correct? 00:59:02 Lawrence: Michael, Of the two studies I’ve found on EV battery degradation from V2G use, both found LESS degradation when V2G was done on top of regular EV use as compared to only charging an EV for transportation use. 00:59:37 The Climate Center: Robert's bio - https://theclimatecenter.org/about/people/robert-stafford/ 00:59:39 david patterson: Vehicles using CHAdeMO are proven to not cause battery deterioration. 00:59:47 Barry Rands: @ Michael, Nissan has determined that the adverse impact on battery life is negligible if the discharge rate is kept below 7kWh 00:59:55 Stacey Meinzen: We will send out the Chat along with slides and recording after the webinar. 01:00:27 Jose Torre-Bueno: Barry can you post a link to the Nissan study 01:01:21 Lawrence: Michael, perhaps less degradation is experienced because the battery is plugged in much more often and it is shallow cycled in its sweet spot, rather than deep cycled; Li-ion batteries don’t like to sit near full nor near empty for any length of time. 01:05:56 Zach Woogen: @Michael @Lawrence @David A key factor to consider related to impact on the battery is the operating profile for a given use case. For example, using your vehicle for backup power might result in less cycling than, say, participating in an emergency "virtual power plant" option (like the Emergency Load Reduction Program discussed by Rachel), which still is less than the "daily" battery cycling under which stationary energy storage systems often operate. 01:05:57 Bob Cipolla: My experience in last 5 years, using level 2 home charging on 2019 Nissan Leaf (62kW) is NO battery degradation shown. This has been using 32 amp charger delivering max of 7kW. Commercial fast chargers used on occasional long trips. 01:08:00 Barry Rands: I couldn't find the study itself, but when Nissan approved their car for use with the Fermata V2G charger, they said "Usage of the approved charger will also not impact the LEAF's battery warranty." https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/nissan-approves-first-bi-directional-charger-for-use-with-nissan-leaf-in-the-us?selectedTabId=releases 01:08:05 Lori Pesante she/they: Another Great Webinar, Climate Center! TY, All! 01:11:11 Barry Rands: Here's a study that actually concludes that V2G can help battery life! https://transportandenergy.com/2022/06/08/v2g-charge-points-can-improve-the-battery-life-of-evs-project-finds/ 01:12:03 Joanna Welch, HUUF: I have 18 panels of solar on my house and a Tesla Battery. I generally charge my 2020 Chevy Bolt during the day before 3pm. Joanna Welch, Eureka 01:14:25 Lawrence: Joanna, Eureka! You’ve found the EV charging schedule sweet spot. (Perhaps you mean that you live near Arcata?) 01:14:52 Joanna Welch, HUUF: yes 01:15:15 Joanna Welch, HUUF: I charge my Bolt in my garage. 01:16:01 Lawrence: Jose, since I can’t copy and paste from nor save the chat, I took a picture of your email address and look forward to being in contact. 01:16:17 Tam Hunt (GPI): this is great info and good to see EV buses and V2G ramping up (albeit slowly). An issue we’re still encountering is the counter narrative about hydrogen buses. Are any of the panelists finding this to be a common issue? The key issue with H2 is of course that it is incredibly inefficient, about 3x LESS efficient than using electricity directly in battery EVs, but this key fact doesn’t seem to be widely understood. 01:18:11 Lori Pesante she/they: great question, Tam- we had a hydrogen bus explosion issue here in Bakersfield. https://www.kget.com/news/local-news/new-video-obtained-of-get-hydrogen-bus-fire/ 01:18:54 Tam Hunt (GPI): Another question: we have in our advocacy work at the Green Power Institute been highlighting potential “critical fleets” issues that may arise as ambulance, fire, police, fleets, shift to EVs and if the grid goes down and these aren’t sufficiently charged, we may have issues. The solution is to have substantial microgrids powering these “critical fleets” and providing at the same time many other community resilience benefits. The difficulty is that CA utilities make it incredibly difficult to bring microgrids online. 01:19:46 Lori Pesante she/they: btw, opportunity to provide comment at CPUC this morning at 11am re: hydrogen in homes: 1-800-857-1917, passcode: 9899501#, then press *1. You will have one minute to speak. 01:20:48 Lawrence: Tam, The secret to hydrogen power is petrochemical lobbying. Huge handouts from governments allow H2 to be kept in the mix, as most H2 comes from natural gas; green H2 is a very small fraction of the total and steam reformation of methane makes up the bulk of H2 available. Perhaps H2 makes sense for aviation, but not much else. Arguably it might make sense for long range trucking, but probably not. 01:22:30 Lori Pesante she/they: WattEV just opened long-range EV truck stop in Central Valley CA. definitely a great model to avoid H2 in trucking... especially since long-range routes are going through underserved EJ frontline communities like mine. 01:23:21 Tam Hunt (GPI): Lawrence, fully agree with you that oil industry lobbying is likely behind the perplexing continuation of H2 discussions, but if that’s the case it means we need to re-double our battery EV efforts to counter the H2 FUD. 01:23:22 Robert Perry, Synergistic Solutions: @Tam Hunt Totally agree, Tam. EV charging is critical infrastructure and must be supported by a certain level of resilient on/near-site generation. Solar canopies would provide this resilience while also preventing thermal damage to cars during extreme conditions. Unfortunately, this obvious truth has not penetrated into policy. 01:24:09 John Pfeiffer: How efficient is storing excess electrical energy in H2 compared to storing it in electrochemical batteries? 01:25:14 Tam Hunt (GPI): John Pfeiffer, storing excess electric power as H2 is incredibly inefficient due to 3x less efficient use of power in converting to H2 and back to power, plus the leakage issue for small molecule H2 in any kind of long-term storage container. 01:25:15 Robert Stafford - WRI (he/him): @Tam right now there isn't much of a supply (or demand) for hydrogen buses. The main competitor to EVs have been propane buses since they also reduce air pollutants over diesel 01:25:50 Wes Chuang: Waiting for solid state batteries for cars, why is it taking so long 01:25:51 Lawrence: Robert, I totally agree that solar canopies over EV charging makes the most sense; grid and building electrical systems require less upgrading if power management systems are in place. 01:26:10 Tam Hunt (GPI): https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/does-using-excess-renewable-electricity-to-create-hydrogen-make-sense 01:28:57 Robert Perry, Synergistic Solutions: @Lawrence It's already happening, with WattEV opening its first megawatt charging station supported solely by adjacent solar: https://electrek.co/2024/05/06/wattev-opens-us-first-megawatt-charge-station-with-1-2mw-speeds-and-solar/ 01:29:15 Lawrence: Solar inverters take DC and put it on the grid. V2G inverters do the same, but also regulate the power being returned based on a signal from the utility, virtual power plant, or utility account holder. 01:29:27 Tam Hunt (GPI): @Lawrence, solar canopies make good sense but for buses and other MDHD won’t be able to provide near enough power for charging, particularly during times when the grid is down. Microgrids for critical fleets will need to include much larger solar and/or wind and/or large battery storage systems to ensure adequate power for charging 01:31:39 Mark Fallin: I’ve heard that Tesla has software called Autobidder (widely deployed in Australia) that does all the cost and compensation for selling back to grid. Anyone know if this is coming to the U.S.? 01:31:40 Lawrence: @Tam, when the grid is down, V2G doesn’t work, for obvious reasons. V2G is much more important to me than backup power, as V2G sheds fossil fuels from the grid; we need to address fossil fuel consumption immediately to avoid cooking the planet any more than what’s already baked in. 01:33:02 Lawrence: @ Tam, yes critical fleets need something during outages. Most daytime parking places for EVs don’t. 01:34:16 Tam Hunt (GPI): @Lawrence, yes we fully support V2G but we’re also eager to avoid any unintended consequencs such as critical fleets failures, so we need to cover these potential issues before they arise and become serious 01:36:01 Lawrence: Tesla has a virtual power plant with their Powerwalls; implementing VPPs with EV batteries and bidirectional chargers faces the same power management and billing structure and avoids negotiating with foot-dragging utilities. The power is sold on the electricity market and often earns big (ridiculous, even) dollars on the 15 minute spot market. 01:36:10 Melissa Chan: @lawrence and @tam, some of the V2G EVSE manufacturers we partner with have black-start capable chargers, so if there's a blackout you can use the EV for backup power 01:37:27 Bob Cipolla: Sacramento Municipal Utility District, SMUD, has electrical rates 50% of PG&E. Non-profit vs for-profit model. Huge obstacle to full electric 01:38:18 Robert Stafford - WRI (he/him): https://electricschoolbusinitiative.org/school-day-life-electric-school-bus 01:39:37 Lawrence: Melissa, all CCS EVs have the hardware for V2G via DC power inlet and building-based inverter. Do any EVs have V2G capability with an onboard inverter? That would be asking a lot of the EV manufacturer to incorporate communication protocols in each of their vehicles for every utility. 01:40:45 Lawrence: Again, V2G strikes me as much more important than backup power. 01:41:29 Lawrence: V2Building only works with expensive building rewiring and isolation switches. This is not required for V2G! 01:42:01 Tam Hunt (GPI): The beauty of V2G is that it can be a key part of grid-down microgrid capacity if fleets have the ability to island at will. 01:42:12 Robert Perry, Synergistic Solutions: Perhaps EV batteries should be warrantied on a per KWh basis only. Perhaps battery and vehicle cost need to be separate. 01:42:58 Jose Torre-Bueno: V2B with parallel operation does not require rewiring or switches. V2B when disconnected from the grid does 01:43:31 Melissa Chan: @lawrence I'm not aware of any EVs that have onboard inverters and available for purchase but happy to be wrong! 01:44:16 david patterson: All EVs have on-board inverters - that is how AC charging is performed. 01:45:05 Melissa Chan: David, great point, I awkwardly have shorthanded on-board V2G charger to just "inverter" 01:45:08 Barry Rands: This is an encouraging sign from the EV manufacturers https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/12/23870267/ford-honda-bmw-ev-v2g-company-chargescape "The new company, ChargeScape, will create a platform that can be used by both utilities and EV owners to benefit from the expected surge in mobile batteries plugged into the grid." 01:45:37 Jose Torre-Bueno: It is possible in principle for an EV to run its on board inverter backwards to provide AC, The problem is regulatory. Any device that puts AC onto the grid needs to meet utility interconnections standards that differ between utilities. 01:45:54 david patterson: Some OEMs are considering bi-directional on-board AC - it is a very difficult for any other use case EXCEPT V2H or Vehicle to load (V2L) 01:46:02 Lawrence: I’d like to see all Level 2 EVSEs (chargers) that might be used between 4-9pm (in California) to have V2G capability (with a CCS DC connection, of course). And perhaps the rest be capable of being turned off remotely for load shedding purposes. No need for Fast Chargers for cars to be bidirectional. 01:46:16 Barry Rands: That is joint venture of Ford, Honda and BMW 01:47:15 Sahm: EV inverter standards do not currently comply with exporting grid inverter standards (IEEE 1547) for communications and responding to grid issues, but they are working toward this. 01:48:07 Bob Cipolla: Great questions and answers in chat! How can this type of forum continue? 01:48:23 david patterson: Please note - there is NO CCS bi-directional standard. There are a number of proprietary systems that use the CCS connector and their own software solution. 01:48:53 Sahm: Operating an EV battery for V2H is no different than using a stationary battery such as a power wall. Grid interconnection and inverter standards are a separate issue. 01:49:11 Jose Torre-Bueno: There is a standard ISO15118-20 the problem is it is not fully released 01:49:26 Rob England - The Climate Center: Endorse Climate Safe California today! https://theclimatecenter.org/climate-safe-california/endorse/ 01:49:30 The Climate Center (Jerilyn she | her): Endorse Climate Safe California here: https://theclimatecenter.org/climate-safe-california/ 01:49:53 Barry Rands: Every time someone brings up the opinion that the grid can't support all these EVs, I tell them that EVs will soon be part of the solution to grid capacity problems. 01:49:54 Lawrence: CCS1 is a physical configuration for DC charging. It provides the hardware for DC to be furnished to a building-based inverter. 01:50:02 Sahm: Note that using any battery to mitigate BTM load without exporting to the grid still reduces load on the grid and can offer some related grid services 01:50:15 Fred Reed: Wonderful Webinar! thanks 01:50:16 Robert Perry, Synergistic Solutions: Thanks! Great conversation!